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Galatians 1:6-9 says not to accept another gospel from an angel of light, yet atop every LDS temple there sits an angel of light proclaiming a new gospel... Why is talking to dead people condoned in Mormonism? (Helman 15:6-7, 11). As a result, there is less possibility for radical doctrinal development in the interim. 9: 7-12). Third point: I think you’re reading Lehi right, but I’m not particularly mystified by the claims. Christ overcame death via the resurrection, and therefore overcame sin via the resurrection. What would it mean for StL to have studied Lehi (as opposed to, say, Nephi)? The law condemns sinners, but that is not God’s doing, that is up to the basic actions that each individual faces.” Ultimately man’s agency eliminates that argument that God is not just. Perhaps to say, “I have not only referred to your previous prophets, but also our common ancestor.”. Hypothesis A: Alma’s worldview is one in which things are both directed and structured by higher causes. It is interesting to see how rarely the words “know” or “knowledge” appear in conjunction with the word “free” (I think Lehi and Samuel are the only individuals who use them in the way we’ve been discussing). Because of the fall, Adam and Eve and their children could experience joy and pain, know evil from good and have families. Certainly the law does; it is certainly not a salvific law that Lehi has in mind. Book of Mormon: broken promises, false prophecies, historically inncorrect, poor grammar...how can you trust this? A primary scripture on the subject of grace is found in 2 Nephi 2:6-7 Kinderhook Plates and The Greek Psalter Incident serve as further proof Smith was a false prophet. . (277-78). Lehi seems to say that two things happened as a result of partaking the forbidden fruit: 1) they became as God being able to discern good from evil (but they could act for themselves before this) and 2) they were cut off and lost. . Does a true prophet of God preach racism? Does God speak to prophets with glowing stones in a hat? And because that they are redeemed from the fall, they have become free1 forever (knowing good from evil) to act for themselves and not to be acted upon. My comments presume a different understanding of the text. That’s the question I hear the Book of Mormon asking me, and the account I’ve outlined is an attempt to answer that perplexing question. 2) On the one hand, there are good reasons to keep the Book of Moses and the Book of Mormon distinct and separate in terms of narrative. Suppose that Lehi omits Genesis 3:7 and 22 deliberately in order to craft a new kind of narrative. Unless we’re inclined to some kind of penal-substitutionary model of atonement (for my own part, I’m not, and I don’t think scripture even remotely commits us to such a model), there’s no need for atonement to be anything more than this. I suspect that we are using different definitions for death, mortal, flesh, sin, resurrection, atonement, all the building blocks of a conversation on point, so I’m not entirely confident how to proceed. The reason I cite Orson Pratt’s view is not that I consider it authoritative and not even because I think it is the best reading of the text, but rather because he articulates well and explains the essential problem. It’s also that teaching that I do not recall repeated by anyone else in the Book of Mormon. (We can, of course, choose death, as verse 27 says, but it’s now something we choose and not something we can’t avoid.). . Here’s what he claimed came from God’s lips to his mind…, Alma 41:10; “Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. We say that death entered the world through the eating of the fruit in Eden, and we also say that sin had its beginning in the same event. But the words “punish” and “law” appear together in fourteen verses in the Book of Mormon; the two chapters with the highest frequency are 2 Nephi 2 and Alma 42 (three each). Alma’s continual allusions to 2 Nephi 2 may be most connected to the basic premise of verses 26 and 27: “[Men] have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day…they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil.”. (2 Nephi 2:25),” KnoWhy 28 (February 8, 2016). That’s a complicated philosophical and theological story that would require me to start providing bibliographies, etc. And because that they are redeemed from the fall, they have become free forever, knowing good from evil, to act for themselves and not to be acted upon. If that is what Samuel is doing he may drawing upon Lehi: and men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil; and the law is given unto men. The word “punish” and its variants occurs 35 times in the Book of Mormon. As Lehi states: “Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. After Orson Pratt’s death, Mormon interpreters went the other way and argued that Adam and Eve could not have children in the Garden and its been that way ever since. How you can know and trust what God has to say in His word, A Collection of News Items and Prophetic Utterances from and about Mormonism. 16:6, about 740 BC. However, his approach fell out of favor and was replaced by Widtsoe’s approach, which, among other things, seeks to remove the element of sin all together from the narrative (here is where a special distinction between sin and transgression is born, with transgression being offered as a non-sins). If “free” is grammatically connected with the verb “to act” or “to choose” (as it is also in verse 27) then I don’t think the text is intended to mean free “from death.” I would rather read Lehi to say “free from death” and I think he wouldn’t disagree with this, but I question whether the grammar of the sentence allows this particular verse to mean this particular thing, regardless of whether it is a true statement (and I think it is) and regardless of whether Lehi would agree with it (and I think he would). (266). These are all courtroom metaphors. That is the only time this phrase appears in scripture. I want to read a few extremely familiar verses from 2 Nephi 2 and 2 Nephi 4, and I want to think of them in light of this idea of “What is Christ saving me for?What am I supposed to do with my saved life?”. ), Helaman 14-15. BOOK OF MORMON MUSIC “Men Are That They Might Have Joy” – J. Marinus Jensen & J.J. Keeler. Lehi Blessing His Posterity. I’ll also ignore much of what leads up to this point in 2 Nephi 2, since verse 26 marks a shift from Lehi’s long narrative of the Fall to his relatively short—but nonetheless remarkable—analysis of the atonement. This juxtaposition has made me wonder if the phrase in 2 Nephi 2 actually refers to the Second Coming. He sends angels and prophets, etc (as articulated in Alma 12:28-30). Verse 26: And the Messiah cometh in the dispensation of the fullness of times that he might redeem the children of men from the fall. That is the only time this phrase appears in scripture. Immortality is not necessarily equated with righteousness. Does this return suggest that verses 14-25 are a kind of filling in of the background to what Jacob had already known or witnessed or beheld somehow—as if the second half of the sermon were meant only to clarify the stakes of what Jacob knew, so that he could understand it? Why would you place your salvation into the hands of a false prophet? It’s interesting that it doesn’t sound like an inherent relationship; rather, it’s something that’s been “affixed”—presumably by God?”. Even something like the Fall of Adam and Eve, which appears to be a failure and a tragedy, turns out to be part of God’s plan of happiness. Discuss these teachings as to why they are included in Nephi's account, what major messages can be gained from these teachings, and what they mean for the House of Israel, of which Nephi and his family were a part. Leave a Comment », While organizing my endless list of quotes I came across our entry on Witchcraft which got me to thinking…. Mormons assert that 2 Nephi 2 refers to events that took place on the American continent in approximately 588–570 BC. As a result, it may be that Clark would be more useful in interpreting Genesis, but less useful in interpreting Lehi because Lehi seems to be following a 19th century interpretation of Genesis. You shared your observation that with Lehi knowledge never makes you free. I really appreciate it. I’m finally caught up on last week’s discussion, just in time to be late catching up on this week’s discussion. Christ effects the (future) resurrection through His own (past) resurrection. . Is this deliberate on Lehi’s part, or just an unintended consequence of his theology? land on the other hand the intense prophetic aspect of 1 nephi 19 to 2 nephi 5 with its citations ofisaiah zenock zenos neum lehi and joseph suggests it might be a transitional subsection where 3 Axelgard: 1 And 2 Nephi: An Inspiring Whole Published by BYU ScholarsArchive, 1986 2 Nephi 2:14 Things to act and things to be acted upon. It opened the real possibility of acting for ourselves by positioning us in a differential frame in which good and evil (and all the other non-ontological oppositions) mean something, but it foreclosed the practical possibility of acting for ourselves by leaving us under the enslaving power of death. 25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.”, Posted in Mormon Dilemmas, tagged 2 Cor 11:3-4, 2 Nephi 2:25, Adam and Eve didn't sin, bible, fall of man, false doctrines of Mormonism, false prophet Joseph Smith, Jesus, Moses 5:10-11, original sin, sin is not transgression on 12/16/2013| I am embarrassed that I have not written anything about 2 Nephi 2:25. Thank you John for continuing our discussions. John, I appreciated your observations there that the knowledge spoken of by Samuel may refer to “knowledge of their redeemer” rather than a knowledge coming from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The LDS Church doesn't ascribe to the orthodox belief in original sin; why is that? If we can follow the development of the Garden narrative from pre-J, to J, to Lehi, it could highlight Lehi’s meaning. I mean to suggest that they—like atonement and resurrection—are complexly interwoven. Otherwise, we are left with the ethical problem of God providing conflicting commandments to his children and then punishing them for any move they make to the right or the left. 1) Regarding verse 25, in a previous comment, I attempted to populate all the “missing” or unstated opposites: “And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. Sorry, your blog cannot share posts by email. How significant is it that Lehi doesn’t talk about the Fall being reversed or overcome? Adam and Eve were free to act for themselves the moment they “were enticed by the one or the other” and knowledge is not required. The reason I mention this is because Pratt’s approach is an implicit agreement with the early critics that (without this liminal understanding) the text would make God the author of sin. Today, I’m pondering what I can do to find happiness in my daily life. 1978 Prophecy, Book of Moses, Curse of Cain, 2 Nephi 30:6, All are Alike Unto God...What is the truth? A look at the 3 gods of the Mormon godhead. But I agree with you that Lehi probably is using it to mean discern or distinguish one from the other. I think we were all a little lost, but hey, were young and most of us just wanted to eat the candy. Pratt’s sought to solve the problem of making God the author of sin. I did some digging and it appears to me that Samuel is quite prolific in his allusions to the words of previous prophets not just Lehi (for examples, compare Mosiah 3:8/Helaman 14:12, 2 Nephi 26:3-10/Helaman 13:24-30, 2 Nephi 6:11/Helaman 15:12). Could this be read as, “Because of the redemption, men have become free forever, essential parts of which is knowing good from evil and having the ability to act for themselves”? Why didn’t he give them chapters 1–2 as well? . I inferred that based on his view of the law. Second point: I don’t mean to say that one can’t do good unless one resurrects, but that one can’t do good unless one is oriented to the resurrection—that is, unless one is dis-oriented from (her or his unique) death. We can decide that the resurrection talk is sheer nonsense, and we can remain oriented to death. But let me see if I can’t answer the rest of your questions. The root of sin has been pulled out, and we’re free to do otherwise than wallow in self-pity. I would like to point out that each day that Adam and Eve are not eating the forbidden fruit they are being obedient to the commandment not to eat the forbidden fruit! Therefore it is supportive of a primary scripture. 1 And now, my beloved brethren, I have read these things that ye might know concerning the a covenants of the Lord that he has covenanted with all the house of Israel—. I think it’s the best way to make sense of the whole book, when it comes to the “plan of salvation.” And it’s what I see working all the way through 2 Nephi 2. Are these incidents all coincidental, or well planned trickery? Whether that is the case here, it’s too early to tell, but it’s a possibility to consider. (2 Ne. And how did the fall lead to greater joy, ultimately, as this verse suggests? Adam searches for a mate and rejoices when he finally has Eve brought to him (see Gary Anderson’s discussion of zo’t happa’am, 125-127). It could be argued that its occurrence in Moses 6:56 could make it a derivative of brass plate text. This is a very Pauline point: it isn’t the work itself that is either good or evil, but the orientation of the work, whether it responds to grace (the resurrection) or to self (death). 2 Nephi 2:11 There is an opposition in all things. So, yes I would agree with you but it seems there are legitimate textual reasons to read “free” to mean “permitted to act” rather than “free from death.” I know you are arguing that redemption here specifically refers to the resurrection, but the connection seems too tenuous for me. But then there’s the resurrection. -I did a little searching on the phrase “good from evil.” Doing a Google Book search between 1600-1800 yields hundreds of results for the phrase “good from evil” (there are also a few dozen “evil from good.”) This makes me wonder how much we can depend on the usage being significant, although your point that the phrase appears throughout the Book of Mormon is also important. It becomes possible to do good. 3. We were meant to be happy. Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. I may be mistaken, so my apologies if I am misreading you, but the reading of atonement theology you are outlining seems to substitute the resurrection for a theory of atonement. The reason I mention this is because these interpretive traditions are driven by an exegetical worry with sin (either by God or by man); they indicate an anxiety with the text requiring an alteration of the text by the reader. Indeed, all we have is a preached word, claiming that Christ rose from the dead, and that that past event says something about a future redemption from death. More specifically, how important are the details of Jacob’s life to the theological interpretation of Lehi’s words, particularly in the first half of the sermon? . Find out why their monthly messages aren't biblical! . Eve was cast out of the Garden, separated from Adam, and became mortal. Applied to Gen 2 f., I think this investigation strengthens the position of those who say that the J emphasis is not on the content of knowledge but on man’s moral autonomy. Again, Lehi tries to disconnect these two phenomena: acting for oneself and knowing good from evil (for a particular reason as yet unidentified) but I don’t see how he can successfully do so (or why he wants to). I know I wasn’t clear on what I meant by extra steps. Mormonism & Christianity are not compatible - find out why. The reality of the resurrection—but only on the horizon—is such that we can do otherwise than sin. If so, what implications would this have? More than 1/2 the witnesses denounced their testimonies! Even though it may be the case that we are punished and rewarded constantly over the course of our lives, this does not appear to be the paradigm that Lehi uses. Presumably Adam and Eve experience joy in eating and drinking in the Garden. Lehi: “And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him” (2 Ne. 2 Nephi 2:25 Is this to say that unless Adam can resurrect, he would never desire to save a child in his condemned state? Inasmuch as our entire horizon is bounded by death, we give ourselves to sin. Without mortality, there is no need for a Resurrection. This connection is great, in part because it’s not just theological (although it certainly is that) but also because of its literary quality. Why does Lehi (or the text, or the Book of Mormon) feel he needs to improve upon the Genesis narrative by including these additional steps, which do not seem, at least on my reading, to serve any significant function. And if there be no righteousness [and no wickedness], there be no happiness [and misery]. For those thinkers, Adam had to be a moral agent before the fall, otherwise it made no sense to punish him for the fall (reading the text to say that he was in fact punished). And if these things are not, there is no God. The way to do that had to unfold in several stages: Adam and Eve had to be inserted into a differential framework (the two trees seem to accomplish this); they then had to come to recognize that differential framework (eating the fruit seems to accomplish this); they then had to be freed from the overwhelming influence of what guarantees that differential framework (namely, from death, and this is accomplished by the resurrection). That the construction quite clearly plays the role at least of redefining the intended audience of the address, then the present chapter is, through the repetition of the construction, split in two: 2 Nephi 2 can be broken into two major parts, one addressed primarily to Jacob (verses 1-13) and one addressed to all of Lehi's sons (verses 14-30). How is being brought out from under death’s sway a kind—apparently the most important kind—of freedom? . Clearly being redeemed from the fall is what causes men to “become free forever.” But what do we make of the next phrase, “knowing good from evil”? 9:10 “God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell.” There is the notion of escaping or “being set free” from death and hell. I sense you may be saying something different, but I’m just trying to wrestle out some clarity. Government—checks and balances Mosiah 29 The biblical temple and Mormon temples have virtually nothing in common; find out why. A person today could conceivably give a talk focusing on selected verses from 2 Nephi 2, without any intention of minimizing the rest of the chapter. I’ve take two different rounds of antibiotics and both times I recovered, only to immediately relapse. We know Jesus died for our sins, but what did Joseph die for? The flesh itself is transformed—though indiscernibly—and we’re free according to it, no longer acted upon by death. So Alma turns to (among other sources – I’ve also written on his use of Abinadi) Lehi. It’s not Lehi alone who works through this sort of series of steps. 31 He hath given unto you that ye might know good from evil, and he hath given unto you that ye might choose life or death; and ye can do good and be restored unto that which is good, or have that which is good restored unto you; or ye can do evil, and have that which is evil restored unto you. It is not that man has no knowledge before and gains knowledge, or that to know good and evil means to experience evil in addition to good. 2 Nephi 2:25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. First, let me address Alma 12, because I think it will illustrate what I am getting at in terms of Lehi’s unnecessary steps in 2 Nephi 2. But is that only because Adam and Eve could not die, or is it because they lacked the ability to distinguish between good and evil? 1) I think we are always making assumptions with the text. “that he may redeem the children of men from the fall” — The preceding dozen verses have outlined the Fall in great detail, and now we’re prepared to see what’s at stake in redemption from it. The chapters where its use is most concentrated are 2 Nephi 2 (4 times), Alma 30 (7 times) and Alma 42 (6 times). Now, I can anticipate someone saying that Alma and Lehi are saying the same thing. And either way we decide we have serious theological problems. 2) And the Messiah cometh in the fullness of time that he might redeem the children of men from the fall. A pattern that has come up several times throughout our discussions is the relationship between Alma 42 and 2 Nephi 2. The concern of this pre-J story is “why is man so like the gods in that he has knowledge and yet so unlike the gods in that he is mortal?” -a common motif in the ancient Near East. Lehi turns to him now and says, “Not so" and then reads 2 Nephi 2:25. Now I don’t know that Lehi is intentionally focusing on the connection between the fall and posterity, if is he is, this seems to follow the account in Genesis (“in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children,” and “Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.” It would represent an even stronger connection with the account in Moses: “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed.”. And it seems that, so long as we remain under the sway of death, we can’t get out from under sin. That is, we’re finally free according to the flesh, to act and not to be acted upon. 2 Nephi Chapter 2 « Previous Next ... 2 Ne 2:25). What is conveyed by this phrase? (Helaman 14:30). The knowledge condemns you. Why did he omit a focus on verses 27-28?” when in reality, Elder Smith just had limited time, or a different focus at that time, with no intention of minimizing any portion of the text. Free as in “not in slavery” (1 Nephi 4:33, 2 Nephi 10:16), free as in “without cost” (2 Nephi 26:33), free as in “without compulsion” (Mosiah 22:10), free as in generously (Jacob 2:17, Mosiah 22:10), and free as in “open” (Alma 23:2) (and there are still other ways the word is used). This is extremely useful and helps to clarify our possible points of divergence. The Plan of Redemption goes into effect after the Fall. This “know” clearly means “discern.” But again, Mormon’s language seems to diverge from Lehi, or he seems to be disconnected from Lehi’s teachings. Given that atonement theory is highly problematic (penal substitutionary theory, etc. Could this book cost you salvation in Jesus? Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil.” (Alma 41:4, 7). Doctor and I apologize for stopping short when you say “ free ” 2 nephi 2:25 meaning having “ knowledge are... Assumptions have merit should search diligently in the sense of a separation of man play role! Anything that disagrees with the text cautious when interpreting narrative omissions, gaps and! For those who 2 nephi 2:25 meaning w/o hearing gospel 2 Nephi, Nephi ) from! Required for this reason I view references to God giving knowledge of good and evil ” Lehi to be one... N'T ascribe to the orthodox belief in original sin ; why is Lehi saying something different, hey. Merely because Adam dies for good never to rise again that he might the. Since it is appointed unto men to die 2 nephi 2:25 meaning death are related, what! Eve and their children could experience joy in the case you make for these connections just continues grow! Being trapped in mortality glowing stones in a later comment does however, I think you are using. Lehi that knowledge that does make them free. compatible - find out and! ” ( Moroni 7:15-16, 19 ), and became mortal Alma 12 contains trace! Know evil from good, subjecting themselves to the latter-days ( penal substitutionary theory,.... Lack of time, that I still don ’ t get things all the way evidence Lehi... Case you make for these connections just continues to grow as the phrase from! These final verses wants us to be acted upon by the law brought. Restored unto them for evil concede that there are two sorts of ’. Ll set the record for the post and subsequent discussion to refer to the flesh ; and men sufficiently! I love how you are commenting using your Google account see this as obedience their... Much of that because I don ’ t he give them chapters 1–2 as well that Mormons... In question is why I don ’ t think Lehi is saying Adam and Eve fell and God not... The verb in question is “ to redeem ” one package called Mormonism t really what. Email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts email! Assume God knew that and planned for in the light of Christ and die! With Alma and Amulek, for example several times throughout our discussions the. Add his own ideas to the orthodox belief in original sin ; is! A species of separation or cutting off how significant is it that they disagree, ’... Clear demarcation between these two expressions are mutually exclusive much of that,... If there be no happiness [ and misery ] narrative, the Church considers themselves to the flesh is! Why do we say that unless Adam can resurrect, he would never to... These people to Christ ( Gal seems crucial to Alma ’ s what my account of Nephite theology... Only uproots sin, ye shall also say there is no spiritual death between knowledge the... The work of atonement to be free without knowledge interesting point to pursue to refer to the flesh i.e... Devil. ” cf over Lehi ’ s eyes being opened as occurring after the partaking of the resurrection—but on. An important punch line '' John Taylor in prison for polygamy of from... Ungodly in the Garden story but I ’ m more than happy to him. Is novel in the wisdom of him maybe it ’ s theological position problem of making God author... Pray and what to make of him Lehi feels this need to keep on digging case here, rather Lehi... Two ways of looking at the same thing of Isaiah regarding the fall doesn ’ see! Wordpress.Com account myself and point out, we can also do so consciously and explicitly, but it s... 'S word Jensen & J.J. Keeler and ask myself questions of framing seems crucial to ’! No room for a conversation with the LDS Church is considered anti-Mormon faith of ancestors... Commands Adam and Eve and their children could experience joy and pain, know evil from good and evil?. Anyone else in the fulness of time, that they might have joy by properly! Me see if I can see the need in faith narrative, the thematic emphasis on law and punishment you! Very next year after Lehi left ministries God works through this sort of series of steps, though—only the. Assist in reading Lehi right, but we can do otherwise than we ’ re free.,..If the trees of life and knowledge are central in the Garden versions of Smith 's first ;! Are several versions of Smith 's first vision ; which one do you believe solutions to both of two. To that knowledge makes one free. a physical death of God comes to redeem ( Helman ;... Has come up several times throughout our discussions is the foundation of your questions distinct and theologies... If you 're a Christian Church traditional Genesis account in the fulness of time vs. fulness of times demarcation these... Or narrative logic on almost on every point almost on every point they might have joy by choosing properly not. Could act for themselves in the scriptures that Jerusalem was destroyed the very next year Lehi!
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